Q&A Section There are many social psychologists like Bandura at your university. Have you worked with colleagues on this research?
Yes he worked with Bandura quite a bit. He is working on a topic of climate change and Bandura is even working on a book at the moment. They communicate very often to share ideas as well. Your colleague Stanley Milgram took a lot of courage to do it and discuss it, do you feel the same for you?
No, it was just an opportunity to do a demonstration. It could have been done in any scenario (camp counselors vs kids for example). Before that study, he had no interest in prisons. He did a course on the psychology of imprisonment where he invited prisoners and guards to talk about the topic. One of the people who just got out of jail was part of the parole board. He had no idea what happened. If they had not rebelled after the first couple of days they would have ended it and forgotten all about it. There was no control group, they wanted to redo it with women but they said it was unethical and wouldn’t fund a new one again. Because of strict ethical studies none of these things could be done again. You can’t even ask people to imagine a scenario like this if it is psychologically stressful and distressing (like rape scenarios). In 1984 said IRB’s are impressive solutions to a non-problem.
That’s wrong, the problem is participants are usually college students and do not sign up to something they know will be harmful. One of the worst experiments was where young poor boys were sent to a summer camp where they created gangs among them and they began to fight each other. That was one of the most unethical studies. He didn’t get approval from the parents and they had no idea what was going on How do you stay young at 88?
I eat a lot of good pasta. I’m thinking of new things, no ideas, and I’m always engaged in imaging what could and should be done in the near and far future. I’m constantly teaching students throughout the world and that keeps him engaged. Even this event involved a lot of activity. Why did you want to study psychology in the first place?
He had pneumonia and whooping cough when he was 5 and was sent to a hospital for children with contagious diseases. There was no cure or treatment at the time. He thought up games to play with the other kids and had a vivid imagination. As a kid, he tried to make the situation better for everyone around him. When comics came out, he loved them and would ask questions about it to learn how to read and write. He could read and write by the time he came out. Do you have any personal heroes in your own life?
Yes, Martin Luther king was a hero. Christina Maslach (wife) keeps him focused, encourages him to do the right thing. Amanda Gordon is also my new hero. He has her speech on the heroic imagination website. She inspired and captivated people with her poetry. She should be a hero model for others! What is your influence on Christina (your wife)?
Very little! It’s mostly one way. She has helped create “the healthy workplace” where she takes her research on how job stress is a problem of the setting/unhealthy workplaces and is using this information to improve workplaces and improve the mental health of other people. She is working on a book as well. Comment on impact of COVID and citizens?
The impact has been terrible! For young children, school is very important for social connections. Losing that makes it very difficult for them. For many people, it has been a year of total boredom. Many single mothers with kids who are trapped at home, many have barely enough food to eat and overall most people have not had many positive effects from this. There has been an increase in spousal abuse, teen suicide, playing violent video games, increased pornography usage as well. I see no positives from this except for a small population subgroup who don’t have to worry about commuting. Many businesses are going to now have people work from home as well. Having an office setting though is important for the social aspect though, so this may also be bad. I am very familiar with your research, but I don’t see it in textbooks! I would like to get the second part of your studies in the HIP into textbooks. Are you working on this?
Sadly for me, publishers have changed completely from when I started. We used to revise the textbooks but can’t because they aren’t publishing physical books anymore. They take the old edition and split it into different pieces to be bought by teachers. The problem has been there is nothing new in the last 6 years because they haven't allowed us to add new ideas. I am trying to convince them to allow this. Another issue is used books. You publish books and many years later people start buying the used books instead of the new books. They tried to fix this by having no physical books at all. What is your reaction to the 2015 film of your experiment? Did they get most things right?
They got 90% accurate. I was able to correct the script and observe the process to correct any issues. All the dialogue was verbatim from the recordings/studies. The only thing they changed dramatically was the ending. I did have the confrontation with my wife, but instead of me saying “you are right I will end the study” the character just says he will think about it. Otherwise I think it was a good movie and worth showing. You never did the study with women, do you think anything would have changed?
Yes, I think there would have been more psychological violence and less physical violence. More attacks on characters and verbal degradation/humiliation. There are many all female prisons yet we have little if any research/studies done on this. For profit private prisons are also terrible because they do the bare minimum to make the most profit, but thankfully President Biden is looking into this. I’m hoping that we will also focus on reducing prison sentences and using prisoner time to learn basic skills to help them get jobs when they are released. Did any of the guards feel concerned about how the study was unfolding?
No, not at all. Everyone was just doing their job/role. Imagine being in the study constantly. You don’t have hindset, they didn’t know where it was going. They were doing 8 hour shifts too. The worst guard was David Eshelman and now he's a father and real estate broker. At the time he was an 18 year old freshmen. He kept saying nothing was happening so he chose to be the most brutal guard of them all to try to get interesting results. I am still in contact with several of them. One positive result: Douglas Korpi (first guy to break down in the experiment) was so ashamed of losing control of himself on that day, which led him to go into clinical psychology and went on to write his dissertation on the shame of prisoners and the guilt of guards. The experiment changed his life in a very positive way and he is now working to improve the dignity of prisoners and lower hostility of guards in prisons. What would you like to see as the legacy of your career?
Philip Zimbardo: Probably something like “his ideas, research, and care for human nature made the world better” Scott: Similar to Philip, I am concerned about inequality and conflict. Anything I can do to reduce these things is what I want to do in my life. Anjhula: If I die at 97 or 100 and I'm not cynical I’ll be happy. I want to do whatever I can to improve the world, even if it is just by a small amount. Last words?
Work hard, study, imagine a better future for you and the world. Work with other students together to create hero networks and study networks! Study in teams and work collaboratively with each other rather than competing with each other. Find partners to share your knowledge, vision, and feelings with to see how you would improve the world post pandemic.
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March 11, 2021 Exploring Psychology Series: Q&A with Dr. Buma (formerly Wegenek) Psychology: The Major & Careers Does it matter what university you pick (like an international one?)
Not necessarily, if you have experience through interning or volunteering many employers are going to care about that more rather than where you came from. What matters more is what the university offers. Are their programs perhaps better suited to what you are looking for? When should you go straight into a PhD program rather than getting a Master’s degree first?
For research degrees - The only reasons you would want to get a master’s first before going straight into a PhD would be because you may be struggling in classes and want to demonstrate your abilities before getting a PhD program. You might find that you’ll need to retake classes if you didn’t do well in them while getting your Master’s. How does studying abroad differ from studying in the country? Or is it not wise to study abroad is psyc?
There isn’t anything wrong with that. In fact, it’s typically frowned upon to do your bachelor’s degree at the same place you are doing your graduate degree because it's encouraged that you explore and go to other universities/places throughout your education. Even after your PhD you may need to do more research (post doc) which you could do abroad. You are expected to do 2-3 years of post doc research before you will be considered by employers. How do you know if psychology is right for you?
Dr. Buma’s book “The Insider’s Guide to the Psychology Major: Everything You Need to Know about the Degree and Profession” provides a lot of information on this! Keep in mind psychology is not a traditional career and family members might not give you the emotional support or motivation you need, but don’t let that dissuade you! Seek out other people in the field and don’t be afraid to contact them for questions. Any advice for people who are still trying to figure out what kind of career they want in psychology?
Work on exploring those questions and get internships! Find out what kind of work you will be doing in the internship and make sure it is related to what you are interested in. You want to learn if the amount of work fits what you like (Too much paperwork? Not enough social interaction?) Note: Graduate students and general alumni panels are often very open to answering questions if you contact them! What are common early pitfalls of psychology majors?
Not minoring in something that is very practical as a fall back in case you end up not liking your career choice. Finding out that the kind of workload or type of work you are doing isn’t what you expected (this is also why volunteering prior to pursuing your career is a good idea!) What career areas/types in psychology would you say have the most demand for new people?
Industrial organizational psychology, there’s a general demand for mental health professionals. School psychologists had a lower demand pre-pandemic but this may change soon. It is constantly changing and varies based on geographical location. ABA is very big in states like Colorado and Nevada. They have a lot of job availability so that may be somewhere to look at. Occupational therapy is very good as well and there are many options in that field. What are some areas that seem to be oversaturated with people or that you think should be avoided for now?
Teaching/Education is a big one. Many people have to move out of state to get a job in this field. Certification becomes an issue you have to worry about if you do go out of state but this varies by state. What can you do in a hospital setting with a PsyD?
The clinical psychologist in PsyD do pretty much the same thing when it comes to applying their knowledge. Social workers will work in a hospital setting if someone has a child to make sure new mothers don’t feel isolated before leaving the hospital. Example story: One worker said she would do rounds with doctors and work with children with conditions like cancer and provide them and their parents emotional support and assistance. Marriage and family therapists don’t necessarily work only with people in relationships, there are niche subfields you can get into as well and may even involve working with patients/clients in hospitals! What can you do with a forensic psychology degree/Ph.D.?
You have to take care of yourself before you take care of others. You need to learn to prioritize yourself and realize that you can only help your clients when your mental health is in a good state. How has your personal growth and emotional evolution throughout the years affected your career mindset?
Dr. Buma’s growth has changed immensely over time. She worked in dorms and counseled with students (mostly interrelational situations between students). It taught her skills like how to deal with things privately (confidentiality) and understanding others better even if they differed a lot from herself. She started teaching and heard people say things like “I don’t care about my grades” and it showed her how not everyone has the same motivations as you do. School isn’t as important for her as it is everyone else. This helped her learn how to balance being on top of the field with other parts of her life (like the need to achieve something in her career). What sparked your interest in neuroscience?
Consciousness. I was very interested in it and how we have no idea how we are conscious. I used to study attention and go to events about this. The more you delve into it, the more interesting the brain and mind becomes. My professor made me really interested in the topic and motivated me to keep going. I learned you could use computers to simulate stimuli and learned that people see different things looking at the same thing! What is the meaning of human sleep dreams from the neuroscience perspective?
One theory is there is a lot of random extra brain activity going on. The brain is working to consolidate new memories with existing ones while getting rid of the others one. Some people do have subconscious processing when you are awake as well. The brain is just electrochemically sorting through it all and the byproduct are dreams. What are your opinions on being a grief counselor?
You have to have a certain personality type to work well in this job. Note that grief is not the same as depression and may be more difficult for you to deal with. You want to know that you can leave all of it behind after work and not be deeply affected by it afterwards. Hospice volunteers and nurses frequently work with dying patients and have to handle some of the difficulties grief counselors do. They can provide good insight into this! You may come to find that over time and with experience in this area you will be able to detach from the emotional weight of these situations better and learn how to balance the work with your personal life more easily. Can you go over possible careers for nurses that want to go into psychology?
There are many events coming up going over nursing career options. Hospice volunteers really help patients go through difficult issues like the death of a loved one or providing important emotional support. Internships can help you network and find resources to look into more options. They may be open to giving letters of recommendations that you can use to get hired. Career services can also provide volunteer services for you to apply and other useful info. These are beneficial in that they typically let you test out career types you are interested in before going further in your education. Faculty positions are more focused on research and there are many studies oriented in clinical areas. What can I do with a Master's in psychology?
Usually people with a master’s in clinical psychology don’t deal with very severe cases. When those cases do come up, a psychiatrist and psychologist would be working together to help the client. A Master’s in industry is a good option and typically involves consulting with businesses/companies and marketing. What can I do now?
How do I find these jobs?
Taking jobs early on (either as an intern or volunteering in places like labs or hotlines) can help you figure out what you want to do with your master’s or doctorate degree. Your bachelor’s degree will act as your foundation to not only decide what you want to do but also prepare you for future work in your career. Undergrad degrees generally lack practical information, so finding ways to apply what you are learning can go a long way to prepare you for later. If you are interested in joining a lab, you should keep in mind what you are looking for (Experience? Perhaps something else as well?) and discuss that with your supervisor/mentor. What has been the hardest part of your career?
General advice
Note: You only need a master’s to work as a counselor, however your job title cannot be psychologist (only people with a PsyD/PhD can have that title!). Instead, you would take on whatever title you have through your certification. Additionally, you can only work and run private practices/clinics if you have a PsyD.
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